First Harris - Trump polls (2024)

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

And meanwhile we have parents with zero rights to know what the school is doing with their kids. And hate crimes against Jews. And an open border. And no will to presecute drug offenses, or rioters, or shoplifters. And coddling and enabling of the mentally ill homeless...

Yes, yes. A conservative paradise indeed...

That's a wild exaggeration though. Hyperbole one might say.

Do you know what your school is doing with your kids? Are hate crimes unique to your area, it even America? Is Portland walking back failed programs?

Regarding the border, the current administration hasdeployed the most agents and officers ever to address the situation at the Southern border, seized record levels of illicit fentanyl at ports of entry, there's action on the border.

Access to deadly weapons, walking back freedoms regarding abortion, a corrupt right wing businessman in the lead for the presidency, ousting transgender people from as many walks of life as possible, exemption for anything church related, soft on corporate crime, it sounds like a conservatives paradise in the making at the very least. Force creationism into schools and America could pass as a theocracy.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Its a right that never was. Really the SCOTUS decision didnt remove RvW, as I'm sure it can still be referenced to indicare life startes at 24weeks.for FedGov purposes.

What happened was the SCOTUS said this was an issue for the states. Which than allowed 50 culturally diverse regions to make their own laws. Just like members of the EU, and states in Australia, do. Some of those states determined by thier own legislation, or constituion, or State Supreme Court, where they thought life began. Some set that at zero weeks. Abortion is still there, just regulated at the state level.

Actually nothing like Australia.

There are complete bans in the US. Some states outright ban it unless the life of the mother is in danger, or rape and incest. There aren't bans in any state here. We have greater freedom.

It's allowed theocratic ideology to influence state law. Church and state should never mix.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Perhaps, as you put it, the good of the community (as seen by the community), over the good of the individual.

A fetus isn't even conscious. As such it's not part of any community.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

I'd ask: set where? Written down, in full, where?

Now this I have already supplied several links to.

However you are basically referring to theUniversal Declaration of Human Rights. Amnesty international clarifies the position.

Women, girls, and people who can become pregnant have the right to the benefits of scientific progress, as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 20 All people who can become pregnant have a right to the benefits of scientific progress that can provide safe abortions.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.amnestyusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/human-rights-standards.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwih3NPom92HAxUtslYBHeI3CAcQFnoECA8QBg&usg=AOvVaw3YV4MAamV-JI50Z8GpgUL2

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Sure they are. Where are they written down and agreed on by everyone? They arent. Thus the are indeed negotiable and arbitrary.

That there are like 50 Muslim nations practicing Sharia law to one degree or another is proof of that.

Again, that's a red herring.

Laws, particularly theocracies do not recognise human rights.

You have seen how all Sharia treats women for a start. How on earth could you consider that adhering to human rights?

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Depends. Were they democratically elected? Than yeah, I'd have to comply.

I didn't say that. I said if they broke out and took over

Does that sound like a democratic election?

Maga, after Jan six, sure. Not normal people though.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Being a criminal, and/or violent, isnt a end to running/serving at a government position.

Only ethically and morally.

Again, this is where Trump and Maga really brings the averages down.

Only in America.

How easy is it for Russia China and Korea to illustrate America as decadent and corrupt? Super easy. Because Maga and Trump. Right wing conservatives just grease the rails for them.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Exactly.

For freedom. We could go in and conquor those nations and bring those migrants back, and set up governments to support "freedom".

But you know what almost always happens? They don't want our culture, or our governance.

Impossing our culture on them is wrong. Even if they greatly benefit from it.

Well let's be honest. America fkd it. Vietnam, and Afghanistan. Total failure. Walk away, days later twenty + years of presence down the drain. Utter mess.

I bet there's literally millions of women in the middle east suffering oppression right now wishing America had been victorious. The rest probably dead. The people in control living of the population don't want you there. The oppressed do. Isn't that why they were scrambling to get on planes to get out?

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

People who come here... They want to change. They want (to a large degree anywsy) our culture.

Yes, land of the free

Except that's somewhat false advertising. Australia is much more free for a start. Good health care, good mental.hezlth care, no guns ti get shot by, safe schools, access to medical and respect for more human rights including the right to an abortion.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Meh, its been said each generation thinks the next one is "ruining the world". I was reading some article a week or more ago, and going back to before the civil war, various pundits were saying the collapse of Freedom, and the nation, were imminent.

I'm more of a wait and see kind of guy. People say the nation will colllapse under Biden... under Trump... under Harris... But I dont think it will be as bad as all that. And in four years, we'll try again.

True, everything new is terrible according to the incumbent generation.

But things were walked back. Backwards is backwards. There's no way to see this any other way. It's regression.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Meh. I could likely point to 500 communists, or Muslim jihadis, across 70 countries, but doesn't make Communism, or Islam, right for the USA.

Could you even find five hundred communists and jihadists who actually give a rodents rectum about human rights or individual people? Five hundred who want to see peace? Or five hundred that want the world to be a better place?

I seriously doubt it. You could find five hundred that can tell you their god is better than yours or why people shouldn't have any rights in that bunch though.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Regardless. My point remains.

Individual cultures, and their leaders, don't always support the same ethics, morals, and values, that the industrialized western world does. And whos going to force them to change? We saw in Afghanistan that it won't work unless thry desire it.

I respect each nations privilege to create and enforce thier own laws. If that means theyre basically evil b*******, thats on them.

Maybe the UN will reign them in, but I doubt it. UN doesn't usually want to mess with soverign nations laws, even if they allow human right atrocities. Especially in Muslim nations whom the UN has a soft heart for.

Nobody is going to force them. Human rights are a minimum standard of decency for human beings. Some leaders stent bothered with the common people. They are there to serve a purpose as far as they are concerned.

That doesn't change what a human right is. Laws have to be changed to conform with human rights. Not the other way around. This is why in most western countries fifty years ago being gay was a crime. It was law taking it's time to catch up to human rights. That's unfortunately how things work where the powerful people in society historically set the rules.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

True. But that fate would have come about by demicracy.

Why wouldnt he claim a stolen election? Hillary Clinton was using the same words. She just had the good sense not to act on them. I believe she still claims the election of 2016 was "stolen" from her, though she might use more "soft" language.

Al Gore similarly still says the 2000 election was "stolen" from him.

Sure, both of them grudgingly "conceeded" at some point. But actually they've never really accepted those results.

Again, the difference is they never acted to try and force the results to be different. Gore finally stopped his lawsuits only after the SCOTUS told him to. Trump went off the field with the actions of fake electors, bullying phone calls, and of course the Jan 6 riots.

Being a liar isnt a negative for any politician IMHO. And a sexual predator isnt exclusive to him either. Bill Clinton, and John Kennedy, both known for their sexual issues. Its being a Criminal, and taking those previous two to unprecedented levels which are... or should... be unacceptable.

Once democracy is lost, it's not easily re-obtainable. You can't vote democracy back in. That option is gone. Democracy can be used to kill democracy. There's no win in that situation for anyone except the person at the top. It seems extremely unlikely that a free country would vote to come under rule, so I'm not sure it's a viable scenario at all. Strictly hypothetical and wouldn't happen in real life.

Why wouldn't he? Because that's the truth and it's the ethical and right thing to do, which is imperative in a leader.

Not caring about those values sets the tone for the country and it's international reputation.

Of course they conceded. They couldn't prove their claims. They stood down like normal people.

Sure Bill wasn't fit to be a president. Heck, he seems more like a nightclub owner.

But you're 100% wrong about being a sexual predator and a liar as not important.

Citing historical examples just shows that America is following a pattern. A losing pattern. It's not working. Having a lousy president shouldn't be a goal. Yet that's what's happening. The worse one acts, the lower the bar, the easier it is for the next person to abuse power and position. Whataboutism is a downward spiral with no positive aspects. Improvement should be a goal. Not trying to outdo every other crap president in history. Citing precedents makes things look ten time worse, because it's a clear market that America not only doesn't learn, but is self harmful.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

True, Hitler declared himself dictator. And basically ended democracy.

If he had not chosen the Holocaust, and never invaded Poland, would he be remembered the same way? Or would he have been the man that pulled Germany back on its feet? A hero?

The loss of democracy might have been to the greater good, if not for putting a man of such evil in power.

Just as the communists, specifically Stalin, could have been to the greater good, but for evil of men.

All democratic campaigning is manipulation. Its only a matter of to what level.

I would posit that they wouldn't destroy democracy in the first instance if they were good men with good intentions for the people they were supposed to be leading.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

One persons sensibility is anothers punishment.

Obamacare forced the cancelation of insurance policies that didnt include pregnancy coverage. Even though previously many insurance plans allowed people to opt out of that to save money. For a single man, for instance.

How were those now forced to pay more not being punished?

Many said standardizing insurance was sensible, but previously there'd been few, if any issues with pick and chose plans.

I would say the overall benefits would be the goal there. I don't think that's uncommon. It's only the last few years here that I am aware of that one can tailor insurance to suit the individual.

We have an option. If you pay private you get a tax break for the medical levy. Seems to work.

But yes,bit does sound like punishment but doesn't pretty much all insurance work like that? Premiums keep going up. It's not like after paying insurance for twenty years that s company goes, well, twenty years no claims! You have now payed the equal value of your house. For the rest of your life, insurance is free. They will happily take enough to rebuild your home a dozen times over. Preying on fear something might up wrong.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

There you go. You understand. In the USA we have the right to own a firearm.

I've always said the USA has deemed a firearm a right. It's how it is but that doesn't make it right or ethical. And it's not even close to a human right, which is my point. You deem a privilege a rights whilst actually denying people human rights.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Except its enshrined in what is called the Bill of RIGHTS. Its not just a cultural want, its a Right to Defend yourself, even from the State.

No, 2A is interpreted differently by different people and isn't relevant in today's world. It's definitely cultural. America has an unusual relationship with guns.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

The numbers disagree. Tens of millions own guns and only thousands misuse them. Millions is much bigger than thousands. 50,000 is just one small town in ten thousand towns. We dont change national law if only one town causes a huge problem.

That's just irresponsible people we know about. The people who actually pay the ultimate price for complete stupidity. The actual number is very likely to be far higher on top.of just there's a readily armed by second hand weapons criminal force, nutcase, terrorists fundies etc..

And thats nonsense. If a foreign country wiped out a whole town you wouldn't go meh, we got thousands more of those, it would be WWIIII. It's a significant toll, and if you have the equal of an entire town every year dying from stupidity, that you do is a significant problem.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

In the the US the communities rights and an individuals rights are equal. The community can not be allowed to bully and enforce itself on the individual.

So you offer an unfair advantage to the individual who can blast away anyone disagreeing.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

As I said the individual is not inferior, or submissive, to the community. Unless there are laws enacted. I have a neighbor who is a car hobbiest, and he can often make significant noise. Often at night. Yet he has that right, within the local noise laws. Most would like very much to force him to stop, but we can not.

Why not? What time can you complain?

Before seven or after seven here you can complain about construction noise. 8 am on weekends. It's enforced too of Simone complains.

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

How it should be anyway.

Problem is we used to need a 60% "aye" vote to pass laws. And almost never did this happen where one party had 60% of the House of Representatives. So... to get their legislation passed, under Obama, the House changed the rule to majority vote, 50%. This allowed a lot of Democrat legislation to become law, and infuriated the Republicans.

Now with a simple majority the party in control can pass whatever they want.

With the old 60% vote rule, things HAD to be bipartisan, and had to have concessions for the minority party, or it just didnt pass. This is the entire reason there are committees. They were to discuss and reach a bipartisan agreement before bringing to a vote. These committees no longer serve that purpose, and many now do crazy partisan investigations, and congressional hearings, where before theyd actually not have time for that BS.

Did Trump not have the opportunity to reverse this during his term?

On 8/2/2024 at 8:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Sure there is. The man is a charisma monster. Even now he can draw huge crowds, and get them really worked up. And convince people he's a hero. He's genius at it.

And his ego doesnt let him quit, or stop bragging, or feel regret, or shame. So he simply has to keep attacking opponents, and ignore and incoming attacks. Then those who have less ego step back, like a normal human would. Leaving Trump standing alone.

Its all well understood. The Chrisma, plus lack of conscience, makes him a winner more often than not.

I honestly don't understand how people are that easily led. The ironic thing is a great many of his devout followers insist people hate him only because of media/tv/Facebook etc. Yet they swallow his BS without question. Does he target people who are blinkered or does his method blinker people?

Wow that's long. I won't be offended if you cut down in a reply should you choose to do so.

First Harris - Trump polls (2024)
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